Philosophycels, do we have free will?

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Regurgitation wrote:
Anakind wrote:
You are really far too stupid to grasp anything.


Right, I'm good looking, have hot girls who want to suck my dick, have money, live in a developed country, I'm in good shape.



Independent if this is true or not (I doubt it, because people like that dont tend to hang out on incel forums) how does that make you any more or less intelligent ?

The same with other rich / good looking people, just because they are good looking / rich doesnt give them any more credibility.

Our arguments are based on pure logic, and you are probably just too dumb to get it.
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EscortAddict wrote:
Regurgitation wrote:
Right, I'm good looking, have hot girls who want to suck my dick, have money, live in a developed country, I'm in good shape.



Independent if this is true or not (I doubt it, because people like that dont tend to hang out on incel forums) how does that make you any more or less intelligent ?

The same with other rich / good looking people, just because they are good looking / rich doesnt give them any more credibility.

Our arguments are based on pure logic, and you are probably just too dumb to get it.


OK cool, so logically explain to me why we have no free will? You can't, because if that could be explained with logic there would be no discussion or grey area.

So, what I'm saying is that, people who are better in life and generally happy when presented with a dilemma like this one, on which logic doesn't present a clear cut answer, they will tend to pick the one that aligns with their view of themselves and their life. They like themselves, they take pride in their accomplishemnts and in what they have become. It wasn't fate, we don't live in a deterministic world. I made this happen.

On the other hand, incels, depressed and unhappy people, naturally develop coping mechanisms, and they prefer to believe they never had any chance and take comfort in that.

Regurgitation wrote:
OK cool, so logically explain to me why we have no free will? You can't, because if that could be explained with logic there would be no discussion or grey area.

So, what I'm saying is that, people who are better in life and generally happy when presented with a dilemma like this one, on which logic doesn't present a clear cut answer, they will tend to pick the one that aligns with their view of themselves and their life. They like themselves, they take pride in their accomplishemnts and in what they have become. It wasn't fate, we don't live in a deterministic world. I made this happen.

On the other hand, incels, depressed and unhappy people, naturally develop coping mechanisms, and they prefer to believe they never had any chance and take comfort in that.


Ok, you dont get it.

Let's give you an example, a thought experiment:

There are two 18 year old girls, who look the same, have kinda the same environment, live in the same country, and so on.

Girl A) On her 18 birthday, she gets gangraped by a group of violent guys, and nearly dies in the process

Girl B) On her 18 birhtday, she wins 100 million € in the lottery.

Now. Almost everyone will agree with me, that girl A & B will develop a very different personality, because of the life events that happened to them. Because, our will IS NOT FREE.

if it were free, they could decide every point, free of restrictions, how they want to be and how they want to think. that would be freedom of the will. but this is not what we observe.

Also free wil contradicts with almost all other hard sciences, which are based on "causality". There is cause and effect. Having free will would contradict this. If you dont understand, you are just too dumb.

EscortAddict wrote:
Regurgitation wrote:
OK cool, so logically explain to me why we have no free will? You can't, because if that could be explained with logic there would be no discussion or grey area.

So, what I'm saying is that, people who are better in life and generally happy when presented with a dilemma like this one, on which logic doesn't present a clear cut answer, they will tend to pick the one that aligns with their view of themselves and their life. They like themselves, they take pride in their accomplishemnts and in what they have become. It wasn't fate, we don't live in a deterministic world. I made this happen.

On the other hand, incels, depressed and unhappy people, naturally develop coping mechanisms, and they prefer to believe they never had any chance and take comfort in that.


Ok, you dont get it.

Let's give you an example, a thought experiment:

There are two 18 year old girls, who look the same, have kinda the same environment, live in the same country, and so on.

Girl A) On her 18 birthday, she gets gangraped by a group of violent guys, and nearly dies in the process

Girl B) On her 18 birhtday, she wins 100 million € in the lottery.

Now. Almost everyone will agree with me, that girl A & B will develop a very different personality, because of the life events that happened to them. Because, our will IS NOT FREE.

if it were free, they could decide every point, free of restrictions, how they want to be and how they want to think. that would be freedom of the will. but this is not what we observe.

Also free wil contradicts with almost all other hard sciences, which are based on "causality". There is cause and effect. Having free will would contradict this. If you dont understand, you are just too dumb.


Right ok, my bad then. If free will is the ability to think and act without any constraints then no, we don't have free will. And I can't see how anyone could argue any other way.

It's a stupid question and debate then, how can anyone believe and accept that a person can feel, think, or act the way they want at all times regardless of what they have seen or of what has happened to them?



Regurgitation wrote:
Right ok, my bad then. If free will is the ability to think and act without any constraints then no, we don't have free will. And I can't see how anyone could argue any other way.

It's a stupid question and debate then, how can anyone believe and accept that a person can feel, think, or act the way they want at all times regardless of what they have seen or of what has happened to them?


Most people, when they talk about "free will", think, they can actually do this.

Free will would mean, at any point, you can decide, free of constraints, what you want to do. But this is not the case, so we dont have a free will.

In reality, the choices how you react to some stimulus, are very limited by your environment, your upbringing, your expieriences, your hormonal levels (neurotransmitters), and so on.

it might more be like in situation a, you will react X 70% of the time, and Y 30% the time. Giving you the illusion you actually make a decision, but it was all determined by physical electrochemical events in your brain, and you brain made the actual decision before it even came to your conciusness (there is actual evidence for this)

Regurgitation wrote:
EscortAddict wrote:
Ok, you dont get it.

Let's give you an example, a thought experiment:

There are two 18 year old girls, who look the same, have kinda the same environment, live in the same country, and so on.

Girl A) On her 18 birthday, she gets gangraped by a group of violent guys, and nearly dies in the process

Girl B) On her 18 birhtday, she wins 100 million € in the lottery.

Now. Almost everyone will agree with me, that girl A & B will develop a very different personality, because of the life events that happened to them. Because, our will IS NOT FREE.

if it were free, they could decide every point, free of restrictions, how they want to be and how they want to think. that would be freedom of the will. but this is not what we observe.

Also free wil contradicts with almost all other hard sciences, which are based on "causality". There is cause and effect. Having free will would contradict this. If you dont understand, you are just too dumb.


Right ok, my bad then. If free will is the ability to think and act without any constraints then no, we don't have free will. And I can't see how anyone could argue any other way.

It's a stupid question and debate then, how can anyone believe and accept that a person can feel, think, or act the way they want at all times regardless of what they have seen or of what has happened to them?




I have to applaud someone who can make a post like this, in light of how the discussion was going. It's a rare person who would.

LMSghost wrote:I have to applaud someone who can make a post like this, in light of how the discussion was going. It's a rare person who would.

You gonna make me blush.



Br0sk1 wrote:I thought the FMRI tests were pretty conclusive.

I has been. It's easy to ignore and fight the evidence when it makes us uncomfortable. It's the bodies coping mechanism, and it's not a free choice.

The science is pretty cut and dried on this, despite what others will say because it makes them anxious. We are a product of our environment and our genes. Nothing more, and nothing less. The brain has already made your decisions for you, it's just that somehow we developed a way to become aware of that.

It blows my mind that people will deny this and at the same time grant mentally ill people deniability for their actions because of being messed in the head. The only difference between schizophrenic and normal is your brain and how it works. None of it is free, just varying levels neurotypicality.

CaptainOCD wrote:
MRI has confirmed our brains activate long before our consciousness registers it.


How does it explain something like Usain Bolts reaction to the gun going off at the start of the 100m sprint. It's an extremely quick conscious reaction in something like 0.15 seconds

CaptainOCD wrote:
Br0sk1 wrote:I thought the FMRI tests were pretty conclusive.

I has been. It's easy to ignore and fight the evidence when it makes us uncomfortable. It's the bodies coping mechanism, and it's not a free choice.

The science is pretty cut and dried on this, despite what others will say because it makes them anxious. We are a product of our environment and our genes. Nothing more, and nothing less. The brain has already made your decisions for you, it's just that somehow we developed a way to become aware of that.

It blows my mind that people will deny this and at the same time grant mentally ill people deniability for their actions because of being messed in the head. The only difference between schizophrenic and normal is your brain and how it works. None of it is free, just varying levels neurotypicality.



What does this mean for a persons sense of self? Presumably the next logical step is that the inherent sense of self has to be revised? Religions are badly exposed as well.

LMSghost wrote:What does this mean for a persons sense of self? Presumably the next logical step is that the inherent sense of self has to be revised? Religions are badly exposed as well.


you really dont need this free will studies to come to the conclusion that religion is bullshit :)

but if there is scientific evidence for it, the better

Regurgitation wrote:.....


EDIT: I just saw that you admitted you were wrong. That's something I rarely see people doing. You deserve a lot of praise for this.
Last edited by Anakind on Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Whimminz reactions when I try to be more "confident":
Image

We have free will up to a certain point.

EscortAddict wrote:
idc wrote:We have free will up to a certain point.

No.


You replied to my post. Isn't that the result of your free will? Or didn't you actually want to reply to it but was it some kind of instinctive reaction instead?

So, tell me, what made you reply to my post?

No, most people seem to believe that there is some sort of free will but we don't choose certain traits. However, really everything we do is just depending on emotions/traits we never chose. It is genetics connecting with the environment around us, something we do not willfully decide about.

Popular belief would be that a person suffering from depression is not choosing to be depressed, but can choose to beat depression. Or that a person cannot choose to not have an urge to rape people, but that you choose to rape. However, a depressed person can be beyond the point of understanding that anyone wants help them because they feel worthless/believe there is no help anymore, which is an effect of their illness – so they do not choose to get help, because they're mentally incapable of doing so and not because they WANT to believe that nobody wants to help them anyways. Same with an alcoholic who is supposed to stop drinking when he's really not emotionally apt to see that there is more to life than alcohol because of his negatively influenced brain.

When it comes to crimes people often times argue that there are ''more people out there who also feel that way, but they do not commit crimes''. But even there I can't really start believing in free will. People who do not commit a crime are incapable of committing a crime, thats the only reason why they don't do it, not because they want it but are so morally superior to choose not to. Empathy or fear of consequence is pretty much the only emotion preventing anyone from raping if they have an urge to do it, so if those qualities you have no control about having them or not lack – they have no choice but to incriminate themselves.
Last edited by Dysfunctionalreject on Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

idc wrote:
EscortAddict wrote:No.


You replied to my post. Isn't that the result of your free will? Or didn't you actually want to reply to it but was it some kind of instinctive reaction instead?

So, tell me, what made you reply to my post?


My reply to this post was predetermined.

It was basically like this:

I opened the thread (also not a result of free will)

seeing your post activated some specifc neurons in my brain

these neurons activated other neurons, leading in the end result to some electric impulses to my fingers, who worte the "No" response.

Everything of thi was the result of the state of my mind when I read the post, and this state of mind was the result of all things that happened to me in my life up to that moment + DNA + neurochemicals

LMSghost wrote:
CaptainOCD wrote:
MRI has confirmed our brains activate long before our consciousness registers it.


How does it explain something like Usain Bolts reaction to the gun going off at the start of the 100m sprint. It's an extremely quick conscious reaction in something like 0.15 seconds


It's nothing but a reaction of our central nervous system trained thousands of times. The sound waves initiate sparks in our neurons which in the end activate our muscular system. And even there, some nervous systems are quicker and some are slower. Genetics again.

Ghost,
I don't know about Usain Bolt, I would assume his brain is already primed for the gun shot and has already made the decision his legs will move. An MRI on his brain in reaction to gun shots would be incredibly interesting. Since there is no data on this, I cannot answer that.

As far as the self, yes you are right, the current concept of self needs to be revised. However it changes nothing in regards to the fact that we become the person we are based on our brain circuitry and our environment. You cannot believe in free will if you adhere to the science of physics. The two are vehemently opposed.

In fact my belief in science and thus not believing in free will or the self is simply the product of my environment shaping me into who I am. If I had read religion documents instead of science papers, maybe I would be a muslim.

EscortAddict wrote:
LMSghost wrote:What does this mean for a persons sense of self? Presumably the next logical step is that the inherent sense of self has to be revised? Religions are badly exposed as well.


you really dont need this free will studies to come to the conclusion that religion is bullshit :)

but if there is scientific evidence for it, the better


Religion always needed to uphold the delusion of free will and the enforcement of it in society. For God to be good on the one hand there needs to be a "free" decision of humans to mark them as bad on the other hand. If society accepts that free will doesn't exist, it will also have to accept that good and bad is not our decision to make.
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