Philosophycels, do we have free will?

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No.
Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them

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Philosophy didn't answer this. Science did. No we do not. Our brain has already made our decisions up to four seconds before we become consciously aware of having made a decision. We are simply automatons with the illusion of free will.

MRI has confirmed our brains activate long before our consciousness registers it. In all honesty, we are really just along for the ride. Just observers. We are simple input output machines and are shaped by our environment and genetics. It is scary how little control you have over your life despite feeling like you are making your decisions.



CaptainOCD wrote:Philosophy didn't answer this. Science did. No we do not. Our brain has already made our decisions up to four seconds before we become consciously aware of having made a decision. We are simply automatons with the illusion of free will.

MRI has confirmed our brains activate long before our consciousness registers it. In all honesty, we are really just along for the ride. Just observers. We are simple input output machines and are shaped by our environment and genetics. It is scary how little control you have over your life despite feeling like you are making your decisions.



This is a hard thing to get my mind around. It certainly doesn't feel like im not choosing what to do, e.g write this post.

However I am comfortable with the idea that my entire personality and thinking style was learned/absorbed/adapted from the "matrix" I was born into - in a sense we are all matrixised by society/family/culure etc. if you know what I mean. Our entire personalities are constructs based on external factors and not intrinic to us at all. The concept of who we individually are (i.e unique) is thus an illusion and flawed. Humans raised in the wild by wild animals are good examples of the idea that humans have to learn their personality/thinking style etc, since those children are never able to "be human".

I am still struggling with the free will concept though, even though if you take the above into account, it's a red herring anyway but again, its hard to see how I didn't choose to write this post for example, even though science says otherwise.

LMSghost wrote:

This is a hard thing to get my mind around. It certainly doesn't feel like im not choosing what to do, e.g write this post.

I am still struggling with the free will concept though, even though if you take the above into account, it's a red herring anyway but again, its hard to see how I didn't choose to write this post for example, even though science says otherwise.


It is hard because it feels so real, but I assure the science is there.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmT-aFvRHKY[/youtube]
http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/brain-scans-can-reveal-your-decisions-7-seconds-before-you-decide
http://discovermagazine.com/2011/sep/18-your-brain-knows-lot-more-than-you-realize
I am absolutely convinced that once we have the technology we will build conscious robots who are sure they have a free will too despite the fact that they are only input/output machines shaped by their environment and silicone. We are all just organic machines, taking readings, making calculations, and then taking actions, with an observer somewhere in there who thinks he has control but doesn't.

I don't know if it is explicitly stated but I think the reason we think we took the action is because at the same time the action is executed it comes into our consciousness so the timing just makes it feel like we made the decision.

This is the Matrix man. A biological one.

CaptainOCD wrote:MRI has confirmed our brains activate long before our consciousness registers it. In all honesty, we are really just along for the ride. Just observers. We are simple input output machines and are shaped by our environment and genetics. It is scary how little control you have over your life despite feeling like you are making your decisions.


This is why our highly developed human consciousness is so cruel to incels with mental disorders. For an Asperger like me it's like I'm watching a horror movie all my life without the ability to take action. More primitive animals are lucky for they don't have the ability to reflect and realize how painful life is.
Whimminz reactions when I try to be more "confident":
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of course we do
I decided to go to uni, I decided to talk or not to talk to that chick, I decided to skip work that day, I decided to go to the gym
etc etc

yes there are instinctive reactions but the way you naturally react to events and situations changes during the years, and that's cause along the way you made decisions that shaped your brain the way you wanted it

Regurgitation wrote:yes there are instinctive reactions but the way you naturally react to events and situations changes during the years, and that's cause along the way you made decisions that shaped your brain the way you wanted it


It's still the delusion of free will. "You" didn't make those decisions. "You" are not the origin of your actions. Your actions are just the result of a series of events happening in the world.

Anakind wrote:
Regurgitation wrote:yes there are instinctive reactions but the way you naturally react to events and situations changes during the years, and that's cause along the way you made decisions that shaped your brain the way you wanted it


It's still the delusion of free will. "You" didn't make those decisions. "You" are not the origin of your actions. Your actions are just the result of a series of events happening in the world.


No. Events happen and you react to those events in different ways according to what you decide.

Saying we have no free will is just a way to pussy out, wallow in a pool of self-pity and commiserate in misery.
Go ask happy, rich, successful, healthy, good-looking people if they they think we have no free will.

Free will appears to be an illusion for the most part, though I do think people here are undervaluing conscious thought

I'm as equally skeptical of people who say that we are complete automatons as I am of people who say we operate entirely on free will

All scientific evidence points to: no, we have no free will.

it's even common sense, if you know a person very good, you can likely predict a lot of reactions of this person in specific situations. Not 100% of course, because there are nearly infinite different reactions.

So for practical purposes, there is a free will, because we lack the methods to 100% determine a reaction in advance (and probably will also lack thi in the future), but from a theoretical point of view, there is no free will.

It's the same as with quantum physics, we know the rules (somewhat), but it's practically impossible to solve all the euqations even for very small systems of only a few particles.
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Regurgitation wrote:No. Events happen and you react to those events in different ways according to what you decide.

Saying we have no free will is just a way to pussy out, wallow in a pool of self-pity and commiserate in misery.
Go ask happy, rich, successful, healthy, good-looking people if they they think we have no free will.


You are really far too stupid to grasp anything.

lanklet wrote:Free will appears to be an illusion for the most part, though I do think people here are undervaluing conscious thought


Conscious thought is just a result of your subconscious as well.

it's impossible to prove but again it has no sense. I think it's just one of those inexistent undefined concepts that the human mind gives birth to. We are able to feel each other when talking about it but it has probably no concrete existance outside our world interpratation. Anyway there is no reason to give a fuck about it, true or not we are always stuck in the same functioning pattern

Captain Cuck wrote:This hasn't been proven or dis-proven so IDK what some people are spouting about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMNZQVyabiM


Lol @ that dumb video. One of the most intelligent people on Earth blue-pilling himself arguing that uncertainty equals freedom. What a fucking asshole! Yeah, next time that electron moves from A to C instead of A to B it proves that Asperger's is all my fault and I have the freedom to change it. :lol: :lol: :lol:

nemesis wrote:it's impossible to prove but again it has no sense. I think it's just one of those inexistent undefined concepts that the human mind gives birth to. We are able to feel each other when talking about it but it has probably no concrete existance outside our world interpratation. Anyway there is no reason to give a fuck about it, true or not we are always stuck in the same functioning pattern


That is just more proof that free will doesn't exist. For if it did, we wouldn't be stuck in any pattern unless we wanted to.

Anakind wrote:
nemesis wrote:it's impossible to prove but again it has no sense. I think it's just one of those inexistent undefined concepts that the human mind gives birth to. We are able to feel each other when talking about it but it has probably no concrete existance outside our world interpratation. Anyway there is no reason to give a fuck about it, true or not we are always stuck in the same functioning pattern


That is just more proof that free will doesn't exist. For if it did, we wouldn't be stuck in any pattern unless we wanted to.


This. If free will actually existed, there would not be such things as "bad habbits" or "irrational anxiety" or "traumatic life events". all these very real problems are evidence that our will is in fact not free, it's a result of our environment, our DNA, things that happen to us.

Also if there was free wil, you could decide on purpose to be gay or straight. One day you could decide to be gay, and the next day straigt. But ofc it doesn't work like that.

EscortAddict wrote:
Anakind wrote:
That is just more proof that free will doesn't exist. For if it did, we wouldn't be stuck in any pattern unless we wanted to.


This. If free will actually existed, there would not be such things as "bad habbits" or "irrational anxiety" or "traumatic life events". all these very real problems are evidence that our will is in fact not free, it's a result of our environment, our DNA, things that happen to us.

Also if there was free wil, you could decide on purpose to be gay or straight. One day you could decide to be gay, and the next day straigt. But ofc it doesn't work like that.




But where does this end? How does one live their life/make decisions etc knowing that they are not really making them? And does "consciously" (a misnomer?) doing things repetitively to build new habits so that your subconscious brain activity takes this new line of thinking into account make a big difference? It would seem it would, but im just in the early stages of exploring this subject.

LMSghost wrote:
EscortAddict wrote:
This. If free will actually existed, there would not be such things as "bad habbits" or "irrational anxiety" or "traumatic life events". all these very real problems are evidence that our will is in fact not free, it's a result of our environment, our DNA, things that happen to us.

Also if there was free wil, you could decide on purpose to be gay or straight. One day you could decide to be gay, and the next day straigt. But ofc it doesn't work like that.




But where does this end? How does one live their life/make decisions etc knowing that they are not really making them? And does "consciously" (a misnomer?) doing things repetitively to build new habits so that your subconscious brain activity takes this new line of thinking into account make a big difference? It would seem it would, but im just in the early stages of exploring this subject.


The first thing, you will be more relaxed and not so hard on yourself. Everytime you were too lazy to do X, you know it was just result of you being you, how you were made.

For example in the past I was very hard on myself whenever I fucked it up with a girl, but today I'm more like "in this specific situation in the past, there was no other option for me to act, I was determined to fuck it up"

Also, the knowledge that outside sources are very influential for your decisions, is good.

That's why it easier to go regulary to the gym if you have buddie... the outside push can be enough to flip your neurons from no to yes.

I would say, the most important thing is, in order to be succesful, you better get into a positive environment, sorround yourself with succesful people, and so on.

First step for example would be, leave this site :)

Anakind wrote:
lanklet wrote:Free will appears to be an illusion for the most part, though I do think people here are undervaluing conscious thought


Conscious thought is just a result of your subconscious as well.


Not necessarily. Though you do have a point.

I view the subconscious as who we actually are, with consciousness acting as a sort of observer of it all. Of course, most of our subconscious is off-limits to our consciousness, but that doesn't mean we can't indirectly affect it.

Read about self-talk exercises. By simply repeating a conscious thought (e.g. 'I am a smart person') repeatedly in our minds, it can actually alter our subconscious feelings and produce desirable results (doing better on a test).

lanklet wrote:Read about self-talk exercises. By simply repeating a conscious thought (e.g. 'I am a smart person') repeatedly in our minds, it can actually alter our subconscious feelings and produce desirable results (doing better on a test).


That's self-esteem nonsense and it doesn't work. People shouldn't waste their precious time on bro science exercises from New Age websites and self-help books.

Anakind wrote:
lanklet wrote:Read about self-talk exercises. By simply repeating a conscious thought (e.g. 'I am a smart person') repeatedly in our minds, it can actually alter our subconscious feelings and produce desirable results (doing better on a test).


That's self-esteem nonsense and it doesn't work. People shouldn't waste their precious time on bro science exercises from New Age websites and self-help books.

+1

Anakind wrote:
Regurgitation wrote:No. Events happen and you react to those events in different ways according to what you decide.

Saying we have no free will is just a way to pussy out, wallow in a pool of self-pity and commiserate in misery.
Go ask happy, rich, successful, healthy, good-looking people if they they think we have no free will.


You are really far too stupid to grasp anything.


Right, I'm good looking, have hot girls who want to suck my dick, have money, live in a developed country, I'm in good shape.
Tell me again why I need to understand why we don't have free will?

You don't understand it either, you just like to think you're deep and intellectual.
Why would any intelligent person who likes his life, have over 1000 posts on a website filled with idiots or guys who might have an above average IQ but are depressed?
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