I spent 15+ years in the PUA community, yet never improved. I was always great with conversation, rapport, "building comfort", etc. But could never "close" with anyone who wasn't butt ugly herself. Constant flaking, "shit testing", etc. So much time and effort for pathetic results. Nobody could accuse me of giving up easily. I stuck with it for over 15 years, constantly studying, constantly going out and applying those concepts, constantly meeting with other PUAs in the area and getting feedback, then trying to fix those sticking points. Yet, failure at every turn. After 15 years of this shit, I was forced to question what I believed. I came to the conclusion that both society and the PUA community were wrong - looks DO matter, and it's the one thing that'll make or break you. So, I quit PUA and went full monk mode for 3 years. I put the same time/effort and dedication towards looksmaxing that I previously put into PUA. I lost over 100 pounds, took up bodybuilding, got the teeth fixed, got tanned, acne treated, contact lenses, etc.

Holy. Fucking. Shit! It was like walking into an alternate universe. Contrary to what I was taught for 15 years, if a woman wants you, she WILL make it obvious. She WON'T flake. You WON'T have to "work" for her attention. Interaction is actually FUN, not a battle you have to fight where she tests you at every turn. You're no longer under constant threat of getting dumped if every little fucking thing isn't perfect. It wasn't long before so-called "9's" were "day gaming" ME.

Game helps, but honestly, it's VASTLY overrated in its effectiveness. You'll see far more improvement in your dating life by lifting, dressing better, skin care, maybe some dental work, and in extreme cases, plastic surgery. The PUAs really pushed the idea that game was more important than looks, that looks "didn't matter", etc. That's bullshit!

I can walk into any club nowadays, act like a beta dork, and still bring home a hottie despite intentionally fucking things up. Yes, I actually did that experiment multiple times, but did NOT expect those results. I was doing everything the PUAs say NOT to do, being WEAK, NEEDY, etc., and I STILL managed to get laid twice that week, with GOOD LOOKING women! That experience alone was the final straw that killed my faith in PUA.

A lot of women are with assholes, but being an asshole isn't what makes him attractive. That's a case of confusing correlation with causation. It all got started when men noticed how women say they want a "nice" guy, but get with assholes instead. Many women are willing to tolerate a terrible personality just because he's either good looking or has some kind of carrot on a stick (rich, social status, DRUGS, etc). The PUA and mistakenly assumes it's his shitty attitude that attracted the woman, when the reality is far different. She's either attracted to his looks, or she's basically turning a trick for some hidden benefit.

Paradigm Shift wrote:I can walk into any club nowadays, act like a beta dork, and still bring home a hottie despite intentionally fucking things up. Yes, I actually did that experiment multiple times, but did NOT expect those results. I was doing everything the PUAs say NOT to do, being WEAK, NEEDY, etc., and I STILL managed to get laid twice that week, with GOOD LOOKING women! That experience alone was the final straw that killed my faith in PUA.

you are delirious

I hate the leftist liberal fairybraiding society.
When people give you an overly positive reality they're just trying to manipulate you into being happy without the substance that actually entails happiness. Because they're afraid your unhappiness will make you ER.

Fabie wrote:

Paradigm Shift wrote:I can walk into any club nowadays, act like a beta dork, and still bring home a hottie despite intentionally fucking things up. Yes, I actually did that experiment multiple times, but did NOT expect those results. I was doing everything the PUAs say NOT to do, being WEAK, NEEDY, etc., and I STILL managed to get laid twice that week, with GOOD LOOKING women! That experience alone was the final straw that killed my faith in PUA.

you are delirious

Dude you can act like a beta dork. You just have to not be autistic to the point where a girl will find fascination in the full package of another guy who is less so. but looks are the golden element that wil lexceed eveyrone else. a 10/10 (rare) has a novelty that beta (not autistic) personality won't create a value gap that will make you beneath the smv of an 8/10 with a good personality. Unless he is probably proffessional comedian clever or totally perfectly brad pitt outgoing.
But women don't like immateirals and love materiality. The one thing I hate about wome nis that they want to stop men from knwoign the superficiality of women ebcause they want men to be naive and unprepared for hteir own trickery.

Prime causations and semicausations are correlations. Something correlating with it are typically contributing factors but they're not the makers of the causation magic.

Examples of needy/clingy behavior include:

Saying "Can you be my girlfriend?"
Saying "I want to marry you"
Saying "I love you"
Saying "I will be loyal to you"

There is a halo effect of Chads. If a Chad acts needy and clingy around a woman, women will assume that he is joking and having fun and not being serious. This is because women know that Chad has options and has been with women before. Attractive men are assumed to be poor relationship material by women, if an attractive man acts needy/clingy and desperate for a relationship, his statements won't be taken seriously.

But if a 5/10 man acts needy or clingy, things will be very different. Women will legitimately be annoyed and creeped out.

Just check out this video of a girl getting creeped out because he received too many text messages from a man:



Video starts 2:45.

A man just got her phone number, and within a few hours, he sent a dozen text messages to her saying how excited he was about meeting her, how he was looking forward to a date, and he said "this is the start of something special." She got freaked out.

Fabie wrote:

Paradigm Shift wrote:I can walk into any club nowadays, act like a beta dork, and still bring home a hottie despite intentionally fucking things up. Yes, I actually did that experiment multiple times, but did NOT expect those results. I was doing everything the PUAs say NOT to do, being WEAK, NEEDY, etc., and I STILL managed to get laid twice that week, with GOOD LOOKING women! That experience alone was the final straw that killed my faith in PUA.

you are delirious

There are online dating experiments in which male models acts weak/needy/clingy but still are able to have success with women.

Eugeniker wrote:Prime causations and semicausations are correlations. Something correlating with it are typically contributing factors but they're not the makers of the causation magic.

Many women are legitimately sexually attracted to men who kill other people. This is because women are sexually attracted to dominance, and killing other people is the ultimate sign of dominance. People like the Florida school shooter Nikolas Cruz and the Colorado shooter James Holmes had many female admirers. Dominance could increase one's attractiveness up to two or three points.

It's not necessarily violence. It's the status of winning a fight and imposing your authority on them afterwards or the physical dominance associated with successfully beating someone up or killing them. Damaging property (if you could get away with it) also raises your perceived status because it shows that you are not controlled by other people.

I saw some drunk guy smashing shit up and punching peoples cars. He was going mad. I heard some girls saying that behaviour is hot. He looks like he would fuck me like a viking.

Fabie wrote:

Paradigm Shift wrote:I can walk into any club nowadays, act like a beta dork, and still bring home a hottie despite intentionally fucking things up. Yes, I actually did that experiment multiple times, but did NOT expect those results. I was doing everything the PUAs say NOT to do, being WEAK, NEEDY, etc., and I STILL managed to get laid twice that week, with GOOD LOOKING women! That experience alone was the final straw that killed my faith in PUA.

you are delirious

I've deliberately acted beta but only towards the girls who have already shown immediate interest.

I ran different social experiments after fixing my looks. One time I was at a club and already a bit drunk. In that state of mind, I thought it would be funny to leer at girls who were showing a lot of cleavage and see what happens. Made it as obvious as I could, eyes wide open, looking straight at the titties, etc. I got scowled at exactly *twice*. The rest just smiled and went about their business, but a few of them treated it like a damn approach invitation! Ended up dating one of them for a few months. Looking back, my body language when "leering" at them was too exaggerated to be real, so they knew something was up and approached me out of curiosity. But still...let an ugly guy try that shit and the bouncers would be throwing his ass out the door.

Eugeniker wrote:But women don't like immateirals and love materiality. The one thing I hate about wome nis that they want to stop men from knwoign the superficiality of women ebcause they want men to be naive and unprepared for hteir own trickery.

That's the reason why they never panicked when game became mainstream. It pushes the same Big Lie that "women are less visual than men". What makes an unattractive man easier to exploit for resources? Delusional confidence.

3D Face Analysis wrote:

Eugeniker wrote:Prime causations and semicausations are correlations. Something correlating with it are typically contributing factors but they're not the makers of the causation magic.

Many women are legitimately sexually attracted to men who kill other people. This is because women are sexually attracted to dominance, and killing other people is the ultimate sign of dominance. People like the Florida school shooter Nikolas Cruz and the Colorado shooter James Holmes had many female admirers. Dominance could increase one's attractiveness up to two or three points.

It's not necessarily violence. It's the status of winning a fight and imposing your authority on them afterwards or the physical dominance associated with successfully beating someone up or killing them. Damaging property (if you could get away with it) also raises your perceived status because it shows that you are not controlled by other people.

I saw some drunk guy smashing shit up and punching peoples cars. He was going mad. I heard some girls saying that behaviour is hot. He looks like he would fuck me like a viking.

They are typically bigger/taller guys. Women like that. The status is just a bonus.

Women want ATTRACTIVE men....who also care about them, respect them, appreciate their ideas, listen to them, comforts them, etc, etc, etc. All those qualities listed mean fuck all if the guy isn't attractive. So many guys with NONE of those positive attributes still do reasonably well, simply because they are ATTRACTIVE. "NiceGuy/Beta Male" qualities are APPRECIATED if coming from an ATTRACTIVE man, and "asshole" behavior is far too often TOLERATED if coming from an attractive man. Above all else, BE ATTRACTIVE!

3D Face Analysis wrote:Examples of needy/clingy behavior include:

Saying "Can you be my girlfriend?"
Saying "I want to marry you"
Saying "I love you"
Saying "I will be loyal to you"

There is a halo effect of Chads. If a Chad acts needy and clingy around a woman, women will assume that he is joking and having fun and not being serious. This is because women know that Chad has options and has been with women before. Attractive men are assumed to be poor relationship material by women, if an attractive man acts needy/clingy and desperate for a relationship, his statements won't be taken seriously.

But if a 5/10 man acts needy or clingy, things will be very different. Women will legitimately be annoyed and creeped out.

Just check out this video of a girl getting creeped out because he received too many text messages from a man:



Video starts 2:45.

A man just got her phone number, and within a few hours, he sent a dozen text messages to her saying how excited he was about meeting her, how he was looking forward to a date, and he said "this is the start of something special." She got freaked out.

To be fair she said he was good looking. He was probably aspie as fuck. If she was actually not exaggerating, I'm going to take her side here.

Women DO have to take into account the fact that there ARE stalkers, perverts and other weirdos out there who would harm them given the right opportunity, and the media has done quite a good job at magnifying their perceived risks. We can argue weather or not those fears are exaggerated, but that is a red herring. The fear is still there, and it is a factor that comes to play in male/female relations. It doesn’t matter how hot you are, if you come across in a way that SCARES her, it will typically override good looks.

Women DO have to take into account the fact that there ARE stalkers, perverts and other weirdos out there who would harm them given the right opportunity, and the media has done quite a good job at magnifying their perceived risks. We can argue weather or not those fears are exaggerated, but that is a red herring. The fear is still there, and it is a factor that comes to play in male/female relations. It doesn’t matter how hot you are, if you come across in a way that SCARES her, it will typically override good looks.

It's why looks aren't the only vein of value. It all weaves in. But when you have the NT groups, then the one with the looks wins out because looks are unattainable genetic substance superficial value that people can't reach. Genetics and looks are unchangeable because we haven'tt invented crispr/ gene splicing or brain to body transplants lol.
So you're essentially value-locked on the cutthroat hierarchies.

when I posted " delirious" was about the fact that OP said that "and still bring home a hottie" twice a week
to catch a hottie every weekend ,for that to be possible, a combination of luck is needed,the planets aligned etc

unless you are a male model 10, it can not be real ,that's is pure charlatanism
especially because OP said that before it was a failure with women
nobody from one day to the other changes in such a way
he is obviously exaggerating

Game is overrated, for the simple fact it doesn’t exist (with regards to attracting women), ”game” is just another made up term the scam PUA industry use to fleece gullible incels and Aspies of their money.

Paradigm Shift wrote:

3D Face Analysis wrote:Examples of needy/clingy behavior include:

Saying "Can you be my girlfriend?"
Saying "I want to marry you"
Saying "I love you"
Saying "I will be loyal to you"

There is a halo effect of Chads. If a Chad acts needy and clingy around a woman, women will assume that he is joking and having fun and not being serious. This is because women know that Chad has options and has been with women before. Attractive men are assumed to be poor relationship material by women, if an attractive man acts needy/clingy and desperate for a relationship, his statements won't be taken seriously.

But if a 5/10 man acts needy or clingy, things will be very different. Women will legitimately be annoyed and creeped out.

Just check out this video of a girl getting creeped out because he received too many text messages from a man:



Video starts 2:45.

A man just got her phone number, and within a few hours, he sent a dozen text messages to her saying how excited he was about meeting her, how he was looking forward to a date, and he said "this is the start of something special." She got freaked out.

To be fair she said he was good looking.

I knew she said he was good looking.

He was probably aspie as fuck.

I might get bashed for "defending the creep", but texting a woman repeatedly does not indicate that he has Asperger's or autism. A lot of men are just unaware that being too interested in a woman, paying too much attention to a woman or investing too much in a woman will turn her off sexually or even scare her. (That's besides the point that texting people too much could be annoying.)

OP did you go out and approach again after your 3 years looksmax?

Fabie wrote:when I posted " delirious" was about the fact that OP said that "and still bring home a hottie" twice a week
to catch a hottie every weekend ,for that to be possible, a combination of luck is needed,the planets aligned etc

unless you are a male model 10, it can not be real ,that's is pure charlatanism
especially because OP said that before it was a failure with women
nobody from one day to the other changes in such a way
he is obviously exaggerating

I was really FAT, acne-ridden, greasy/outdated hair, poorly dressed, fucked up teeth and hardly any muscle. Turns out I had good facial bone structure, but that didn't help because it was buried under so much face and neck fat. Being obese and skinnyfat (lack of muscle) can ruin a guy just as badly as shitty bone structure. I was lucky in that I had things that could be fixed, including the teeth.

games is just a bunch of misused evolutionary psychology

Granny fucker master yoda, the ero sage.

Eugeniker wrote:Prime causations and semicausations are correlations. Something correlating with it are typically contributing factors but they're not the makers of the causation magic.

Also, just because a woman says that a man is an "asshole" or "bad boy", that does not prove that it is true. OP has white knight tendencies because he still appears to take what a woman says as "true." I read another article by him about "male entitlement".

Also, there are multiple interpretations of "asshole". A man who does not pay enough attention to a woman or does not spend enough time with a woman could be viewed as an "asshole."

Paradigm Shift wrote:I was really FAT, acne-ridden, greasy/outdated hair, poorly dressed, fucked up teeth and hardly any muscle. Turns out I had good facial bone structure, but that didn't help because it was buried under so much face and neck fat. Being obese and skinnyfat (lack of muscle) can ruin a guy just as badly as shitty bone structure. I was lucky in that I had things that could be fixed, including the teeth.

In the OP, you said you were a HUNDRED pounds overweight, i.e. grossly, morbidly obese, in addition to all the other problems.

What is amazing is that you were able to undertake PUA study and practice for 15 YEARS (!) without, apparently, ever seeing this elephant-in-the-room. I doubt if even the most intrepid pickup-monger (e.g. Tyler) would suggest that, in your "before" physical state, PUA practices would yield much fruit. Even Tyler understands that looks are part of the picture, which is why he suggests that PUA stuff be COMBINED with looks work, career building, etc. OK, granted, he (and his ilk) greatly under-play the importance of looks, I get that. But they don't deny it completely; that's an exaggeration.

But getting back to the "amazing" that I referred to: this represents a strange cognitive problem (?) wherein one literally does not see the obvious. Think about this for a moment. Who could possibly expect a grossly-obese guy with acne, bad teeth, no muscle, no style, no NOTHING, to be attractive to women? There's something terribly wrong here. To say that your results were vastly better after you transformed everything (from that abysmal before state) is a no-brainer. What's amazing is that you could spend FIFTEEN YEARS thinking otherwise! What accounts for this? Have you reflected on it?

I've noticed comparable cognitive distortions/blindnesses elsewhere about the incel-osphere. There's this guy on youtube ("never give up" is his handle, I believe) who posted a series of popular vids on his incel-ish failures with women, etc. He looks absolutely terrible, as many have pointed out in the comments: horrible hair, horrible clothes, silly hat, goofy glasses, etc. It is as though he were trying, intentionally, to look terrible and thus sabotage his chances with women. He could literally raise his score by +3-4 overnight, with a few easy tweaks. But he does not see it. What accounts for this blindness, I wonder? I mean, even the "looks don't matter" propaganda, persistent though it may be, can't possibly be THAT powerful, can it? Well, OK, maybe it can, but I find it hard to believe that it actually is for more than a small fraction (say, the extraordinarily-gullible) of the population. How is is possible for someone to be that deluded? Everyone likes good-looking people. Is it seriously possible to believe otherwise?

Consider, for a moment, that when women are asked about the qualities they are most attracted to, they list things like honesty, reliability, sense of humor, etc., then looks. They don't fail to mention looks, they just put the other stuff over looks. Yes, of course, I know that they are mostly lying about the other stuff, and that looks are actually more important to them. My point is that they don't FAIL to mention looks. How could one get the idea from this that looks are totally irrelevant? From where comes the brainwashing so all-powerful that some men spend FIFTEEN YEARS assiduously working on everything BUT looks (when terrible looks are obviously a problem)? Serious question. Where does the brainwashing come from? How much of it is societal, or external, and how much of it is internal cognitive distortion/blindness (a sort of SELF-brainwashing)?

Also, it seems that once the brainwashing is cracked ("taking the red/black pill"), the subject often flips into equal-and-opposite mode: extreme reductionistic valuation of looks as EVERYTHING (whereas before it was NOTHING). There's a word for this, a cool word: enantiodromia -- the tendency to go from one extreme pole to the other.

PS: Paradigm Shift, if you are reading this: I read your article and book. Very interesting stuff! I might post some thoughts on your wiki discussion page, if that is OK with you.

Paradigm Shift wrote:I spent 15+ years in the PUA community, yet never improved. I was always great with conversation, rapport, "building comfort", etc. But could never "close" with anyone who wasn't butt ugly herself. Constant flaking, "shit testing", etc. So much time and effort for pathetic results. Nobody could accuse me of giving up easily. I stuck with it for over 15 years, constantly studying, constantly going out and applying those concepts, constantly meeting with other PUAs in the area and getting feedback, then trying to fix those sticking points. Yet, failure at every turn. After 15 years of this shit, I was forced to question what I believed. I came to the conclusion that both society and the PUA community were wrong - looks DO matter, and it's the one thing that'll make or break you. So, I quit PUA and went full monk mode for 3 years. I put the same time/effort and dedication towards looksmaxing that I previously put into PUA. I lost over 100 pounds, took up bodybuilding, got the teeth fixed, got tanned, acne treated, contact lenses, etc.

Holy. Fucking. Shit! It was like walking into an alternate universe. Contrary to what I was taught for 15 years, if a woman wants you, she WILL make it obvious. She WON'T flake. You WON'T have to "work" for her attention. Interaction is actually FUN, not a battle you have to fight where she tests you at every turn. You're no longer under constant threat of getting dumped if every little fucking thing isn't perfect. It wasn't long before so-called "9's" were "day gaming" ME.

Game helps, but honestly, it's VASTLY overrated in its effectiveness. You'll see far more improvement in your dating life by lifting, dressing better, skin care, maybe some dental work, and in extreme cases, plastic surgery. The PUAs really pushed the idea that game was more important than looks, that looks "didn't matter", etc. That's bullshit!

I can walk into any club nowadays, act like a beta dork, and still bring home a hottie despite intentionally fucking things up. Yes, I actually did that experiment multiple times, but did NOT expect those results. I was doing everything the PUAs say NOT to do, being WEAK, NEEDY, etc., and I STILL managed to get laid twice that week, with GOOD LOOKING women! That experience alone was the final straw that killed my faith in PUA.

A lot of women are with assholes, but being an asshole isn't what makes him attractive. That's a case of confusing correlation with causation. It all got started when men noticed how women say they want a "nice" guy, but get with assholes instead. Many women are willing to tolerate a terrible personality just because he's either good looking or has some kind of carrot on a stick (rich, social status, DRUGS, etc). The PUA and mistakenly assumes it's his shitty attitude that attracted the woman, when the reality is far different. She's either attracted to his looks, or she's basically turning a trick for some hidden benefit.

You could have done something smart with those "butt ugly" girls you supposedly picked up.

I think they are not butt ugly chicks but figments of your imagination. You're a masochist, so you treat yourself rough and make up stories portraying you as a progressively bigger fucking loser.

Anyway, let's say they were real. Or one of them was real. You could have done what women do to men often enough to call it habitual. You suggest changes to her appearance. You know, tell her to shower more often, give up the fast food three times a day every day of her life and maybe have a Whopper once a day instead.

You could have engaged this fantasy slob in activities like walking. So as to both of you lose some weight.

Then you could have taken "her" shopping. Buy her something that is not the equivalent of a fucking burlap bag. Have the girls who work in the story give your butt ugly love something of a makeover.

The possibilities were endless. Alas, they were fake. And, if they were not fake, you just accidentally walked into a heavyweight yoga class and ran out the door hysterical not because the women doing yoga were slobs but because you knew they would never give you the time of day.

You could also have learned to eat pussy like a champ. Yeah, you might have to suck some road whore's cunt under 200 pounds of flab, but the more you worked at improving your game, the more likely your girl would be to tell her friends about how much you eat her pussy and how good you are at it.

Even a decent looking broad who is a friend of your pig practice pussy, maybe even under 200 pounds, would let you work on her snatch. Because no woman or girl on earth ever kept anything sexual a secret from her friends.If you got good at it, word would get around and you would finally get some attention from a fuckable female.

Fabie wrote:

Paradigm Shift wrote:I can walk into any club nowadays, act like a beta dork, and still bring home a hottie despite intentionally fucking things up. Yes, I actually did that experiment multiple times, but did NOT expect those results. I was doing everything the PUAs say NOT to do, being WEAK, NEEDY, etc., and I STILL managed to get laid twice that week, with GOOD LOOKING women! That experience alone was the final straw that killed my faith in PUA.

you are delirious

Nah, he ain't delirious. He's full of shit.

And this PUA thing, the guys you fools think know how to pick up women... Are they the guys who hold seminars for losers at $250 a seat like motivational speakers? I hope so. There's a sucker born every second these days, and I would be very happy to learn that you loser fags pony up to attend such educational workshops instead of putting on your Pretty Pony panties and wigs and fuck yourselves in the ass with the nearest phallic-shaped object.

lots of fags itt